What is the fascination with 'spins'

[monty19@ hotmail.com]

OK, here goes. I'll probably have to duck and run for my life after this,
although it's not my intention to upset anyone by any means.

Personally, I think having separate ISO images for Desktop, Developer,
Server, KDE, and whatever else is a pretty silly idea. It's one of the main
reasons I don't like Ubuntu. I run Fedora on a system I would classify as a
server, and one I would classify as a Desktop, although some would seem to
classify it as a Developer Workstation, despite my rather sincere belief
that I am not a developer. Reagardless of classification though, it takes
just one DVD to install any systems I have. That's just me at home with two
computers I run Linux on; now consider those in an IT environment and how
many systems in how many different roles they may be supporting. How big a
collection of discs is he going to need? And if you're going to point at
that individual and say he should be using RHEL, or something similar, then
why have a server spin at all?

I like having just one CD, with the vast majority of what I want to install.
It takes me a few minutes tops to download what I want from Extras now,
versus the many times that it took to install the developer packages I
wanted with F7T1...

Now, I know it is a goal to merge Fedora Core and Extras, so here are my
questions. As of Fedora 6, it looks like the binary CD was ~3.4GB (going
off of http://torrent.fedoraproject.org/) That still leaves 1.3GB on a
4.7GB DVD available for new additions. How big is Extras? Even if it is
bigger than that, why not create one DVD to the fullest extent that you can
with the most popular packages, and then create a second install disc for
the remaining packages, more akin to the Solaris Companion Disc. How many
images are you going to release? Two per supported platform seems better
than what sounds like a whole lot more coming down the road...

I look at it this way; if you're going to download two ISO images, then why
not download two that have all the packages you want. Why download a server
disc, and a desktop disc, which may both be lacking packages you want to
install, and then are forced to download anyway...

I'm not saying that the ability to create your own disc with just the
software you want is necessarilly a bad thing either; it's just that with
the current route there are going to be a lot more people making their own
discs, than downloading the ones created by the Fedora team, and then what's
the point of releasing any at all?

I just can't help but feel like this is a less than ideal turn of direction
for Fedora, not just for the reasons above, but also because it is going to
confuse new users. Which of the discs do I want? What if I need something
else? Do I have to create my own spin? Can I download it afterward?
Simple questions for everyone here, but it's going to confuse the daylights
out of people looking at Linux as an alternative to whatever they are
running now...

Just my two cents, for whatever they're worth...

[Jim Cornette]

Post by monty19@ hotmail.com
OK, here goes. I'll probably have to duck and run for my life after
this, although it's not my intention to upset anyone by any means.
Personally, I think having separate ISO images for Desktop, Developer,
Server, KDE, and whatever else is a pretty silly idea.

Agreed, especially if one uses programs from all categories.

Post by monty19@ hotmail.com
I look at it this way; if you're going to download two ISO images, then
why not download two that have all the packages you want. Why download
a server disc, and a desktop disc, which may both be lacking packages
you want to install, and then are forced to download anyway...

The separate versions confuses me a bit also. I don't know if one can
install a server and then go onto installing a desktop and then a KDE
version of a desktop.

Post by monty19@ hotmail.com
I'm not saying that the ability to create your own disc with just the
software you want is necessarily a bad thing either; it's just that
with the current route there are going to be a lot more people making
their own discs, than downloading the ones created by the Fedora team,
and then what's the point of releasing any at all?

if there are those that just prefer one model or another, it will be a
good concept. I cannot say either way if they exist or are supposed to
exist for these specialized groups.

Post by monty19@ hotmail.com
I just can't help but feel like this is a less than ideal turn of
direction for Fedora, not just for the reasons above, but also because
it is going to confuse new users. Which of the discs do I want? What
if I need something else? Do I have to create my own spin? Can I
download it afterward? Simple questions for everyone here, but it's
going to confuse the daylights out of people looking at Linux as an
alternative to whatever they are running now...
Just my two cents, for whatever they're worth...

I couldn't answer as to other users possibly being confused by all of
the different models or if it will make things simpler for them. I do
talk with some people who are overwhelmed about how to start with Linux
and fear taking the plunge into the OS. Maybe Linux with very little
power is what these sort of users need. No server applications,
development tools or CLI powertools. I don't like the idea of a
downscaled Linux environment myself though.

As of now, I do not know how to make a spin of the binaries yet. It
appears that one will need to start learning how to in order to get an
install media that is usable for many installations.

Jim

[Steven Haigh]

Post by Jim Cornette

Post by monty19@ hotmail.com
OK, here goes. I'll probably have to duck and run for my life
after this, although it's not my intention to upset anyone by any
means.
Personally, I think having separate ISO images for Desktop,
Developer, Server, KDE, and whatever else is a pretty silly idea.

Agreed, especially if one uses programs from all categories.

I also agree here. I love having one DVD to do it all. After all, when
the base install is on the system, it's pretty much a matter of using
yum to install what else you need anyhow....

I think the whole point of spins are to make things easier for newbies
- a default install if you will that has the most common apps. This
being said, I would like to see a 'newbie' CD and a single DVD instead
of a multitude of other options.

I install on 2 machines... One that does pretty much everything
internet, and another one for testing, asterisk, streaming DVB via
multicast and whatever else catches my fancy. It's great being able to
do that from a single DVD.

[Alfredo Ferrari]

Post by Jim Cornette

OK, here goes. I'll probably have to duck and run for my life after
this, although it's not my intention to upset anyone by any means.
Personally, I think having separate ISO images for Desktop, Developer,
Server, KDE, and whatever else is a pretty silly idea.

Agreed, especially if one uses programs from all categories.

I also agree here. I love having one DVD to do it all. After all, when the
base install is on the system, it's pretty much a matter of using yum to
install what else you need anyhow....
I think the whole point of spins are to make things easier for newbies - a
default install if you will that has the most common apps. This being said, I
would like to see a 'newbie' CD and a single DVD instead of a multitude of
other options.
I install on 2 machines... One that does pretty much everything internet, and
another one for testing, asterisk, streaming DVB via multicast and whatever
else catches my fancy. It's great being able to do that from a single DVD.

+1

I install some 10+ different machines and none of them can be easily
defined as a desktop/server etc. I typically use packages from all
categories, having one DVD is muuuch better.

Alfredo

[Martin Sourada]

Post by Jim Cornette

Post by monty19@ hotmail.com
OK, here goes. I'll probably have to duck and run for my life after
this, although it's not my intention to upset anyone by any means.
Personally, I think having separate ISO images for Desktop,
Developer, Server, KDE, and whatever else is a pretty silly idea.

Agreed, especially if one uses programs from all categories.

I agree, too. What am I supposed to install if I use one machine as
ftpserver, media center and as development workstation all at once? I
like to select packages I want during installation and have them all on
one dvd rather than downloading it lately from internet... However,
there are also some pros for the spins... As some say - it makes the
installation easier to newbies. Next it allows some degree of
optimisation for the kind of use. But I think a lot of the optimisation
could be done from anaconda instead using same DVD for all. E.g. setting
up start up services. On server no one needs bluetooth, on laptop one
does not need ftpserver, on desktop I would wonder if anyone needed
power manager (examples)... Also, others may have different point of
view from mine and say that they want to do some minimal instalation and
then install what they want from internet to save bandwidth. Well, if
you do only few installation of each release, it could save some (you
must download big DVD, and then, after install, update a lot of
packages...), but if you install the same on many machines this way is
rather bad.

I distinguish only three spins: Desktop, Laptop, Server. I don't know
why GNOME and KDE ought to be distributed in two different spins? I
think many users who use GNOME use KDE apps as well and KDE users use
GNOME apps... I don't like the (K/X/...)Ubuntu way. The old Fedora way
was better for me (and as I see to some others too).

Post by Jim Cornette

Post by monty19@ hotmail.com
I just can't help but feel like this is a less than ideal turn of
direction for Fedora, not just for the reasons above, but also
because it is going to confuse new users. Which of the discs do I
want? What if I need something else? Do I have to create my own
spin? Can I download it afterward? Simple questions for everyone
here, but it's going to confuse the daylights out of people looking
at Linux as an alternative to whatever they are running now...
Just my two cents, for whatever they're worth...

I couldn't answer as to other users possibly being confused by all of
the different models or if it will make things simpler for them. I do
talk with some people who are overwhelmed about how to start with
Linux and fear taking the plunge into the OS. Maybe Linux with very
little power is what these sort of users need. No server applications,
development tools or CLI powertools. I don't like the idea of a
downscaled Linux environment myself though.
As of now, I do not know how to make a spin of the binaries yet. It
appears that one will need to start learning how to in order to get an
install media that is usable for many installations.
Jim

Agreed.

[n0dalus]

Post by monty19@ hotmail.com
Personally, I think having separate ISO images for Desktop, Developer,
Server, KDE, and whatever else is a pretty silly idea. It's one of the main
reasons I don't like Ubuntu. I run Fedora on a system I would classify as a
server, and one I would classify as a Desktop, although some would seem to
classify it as a Developer Workstation, despite my rather sincere belief
that I am not a developer. Reagardless of classification though, it takes
just one DVD to install any systems I have. That's just me at home with two
computers I run Linux on; now consider those in an IT environment and how
many systems in how many different roles they may be supporting. How big a
collection of discs is he going to need? And if you're going to point at
that individual and say he should be using RHEL, or something similar, then
why have a server spin at all?

Agreed.

Post by monty19@ hotmail.com
I look at it this way; if you're going to download two ISO images, then why
not download two that have all the packages you want. Why download a server
disc, and a desktop disc, which may both be lacking packages you want to
install, and then are forced to download anyway...

Maybe a solution would be to have a combined DVD of the most popular
spins. During the install, it should present you with a list of the
groups (spins), along with good descriptions, and allow people to tick
the ones they want. By default just the desktop group should be
ticked.

I don't know if the installer currently allows this, but if you are
installing using a desktop spin disc, it would be cool if it gave you
the option to insert discs of other spins at that point.

As a side note, is there any logging in place to try and see what are
the most popular packages on the mirrors? It'd be interesting to see
which packages not included by default in the distro are downloaded a
lot (and maybe should be included).

As a more important side note, it is time to do something about our
terrible download page, especially now that we are going to have so
many isos! Currently the user goes to the page and sees the following
options: "torrent", "i386", "x86_64", "ppc" -- what the heck do these
mean to most computer users? These then lead to pages with no
instructions of how to use an ISO. And if they decide to use a mirror,
they will end up in a directory index with no indication of where the
ISOs are (it takes me, a fairly experienced Fedora user, a couple of
minutes to find the right folder) and users often end up with the
wrong discs (SRPMs or wrong arch).

The download page should have nice graphics and layout (not just text
-- look at the Firefox download page for instance), and should explain
on that page what the different spins are. The user then clicks a spin
and gets taken to a slightly different page, listing the arches and
explaining the difference is between the arches and how to find out
which one you are using (it should say "Step 2/3" somewhere, so users
don't think they are starting some long wizard process). After a user
clicks on their arch, It should show a slightly different page, with a
drop-down box for mirrors (not too prominent). Instead of linking to a
directory index it should provide the links directly to each of the
discs, on the download page. Ther should also be prominent links to
pages explaining how to burn an ISO and how to use a torrent -- these
shouldn't just be text links at the bottom of the page, they need to
be big, graphical and stand out.

One or two of my cents,
n0dalus.

[Jim Cornette]

Post by n0dalus
I don't know if the installer currently allows this, but if you are
installing using a desktop spin disc, it would be cool if it gave you
the option to insert discs of other spins at that point.

I would like to see this option added as a possibility. If one wants to
pull in packages from other groups and has no Internet access for the
installation, how would one upgrade or customize without setting up a
repository locally?
I installed the F7t1 spin on one computer and did not see an additional
disc screen. There might be one option for such a case but missed it if
it was there.

Jim

Post by n0dalus
One or two of my cents,
n0dalus.

[dragoran]

Post by monty19@ hotmail.com
I like having just one CD, with the vast majority of what I want to
install. It takes me a few minutes tops to download what I want from
Extras now, versus the many times that it took to install the
developer packages I wanted with F7T1...

there should be a everything set (2 DVDs) for people that prefer it and
want to install it on many systems. the only problem could be mirros but
it can be shipped as a bittorent only download.
And fedora should stop to really on a broadband internet connection. It
should be able to be installed without network access [1]. And software
should be able to be installed from the media afterwards, even for new
users [2].
We had this before moving to yum/pirut so its a regession that should be
fixed, I would even consider this as a blocker.

1:
Its only possible if you only want the packages that are on the spin
that you have downloaded.

2:
I know that its possible to create custom local repos and/or use a dvd
as a repo.
But try to tell this a new user coming from windows...
What would he do? Either go to an other distro or even worse back to
windows.

[cornel panceac]

well, looks obbvious that simple it's divine. but, it may be fun to have
many different spins as long as you have enough enough developers for the
job, but when all you have is developers for desktop, then better minimize
the rate of change, imho. also, i suppose one year release distance it's a
more practical approach when you wanna change a lotta things .
so i agree with the idea that one dvd filled with only one package for every
job is better than multiple cdsets/dvds, with duplicates.

Post by dragoran

Post by monty19@ hotmail.com
I like having just one CD, with the vast majority of what I want to
install. It takes me a few minutes tops to download what I want from
Extras now, versus the many times that it took to install the
developer packages I wanted with F7T1...

there should be a everything set (2 DVDs) for people that prefer it and
want to install it on many systems. the only problem could be mirros but
it can be shipped as a bittorent only download.
And fedora should stop to really on a broadband internet connection. It
should be able to be installed without network access [1]. And software
should be able to be installed from the media afterwards, even for new
users [2].
We had this before moving to yum/pirut so its a regession that should be
fixed, I would even consider this as a blocker.
Its only possible if you only want the packages that are on the spin
that you have downloaded.
I know that its possible to create custom local repos and/or use a dvd
as a repo.
But try to tell this a new user coming from windows...
What would he do? Either go to an other distro or even worse back to
windows.
--
fedora-test-list mailing list
fedora-test-list at redhat.com
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-test-list

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[Fulko.Hew]

monty19 wrote on 02/04/2007 03:19:45 PM:


I agree completely with what monty19 wrote, so I'm going to
paraphrase/extract
their important points as they apply to me.

Post by monty19@ hotmail.com
Personally, I think having separate ISO images for Desktop, Developer,
Server, KDE, and whatever else is a pretty silly idea

I run Fedora on systems I would classify as a server/Desktop/Developer
Workstation, and so would everybody else that I personally know.

Post by monty19@ hotmail.com
Regardless of classification though, it takes just one DVD to install
any systems I have.
I look at it this way; if you're going to download two ISO images, then

why

Post by monty19@ hotmail.com
not download two that have all the packages you want. Why download a

server

Post by monty19@ hotmail.com
disc, and a desktop disc, which may both be lacking packages you want to
install, and then are forced to download anyway...
I just can't help but feel like this is a less than ideal turn of

direction

Post by monty19@ hotmail.com
for Fedora, not just for the reasons above, but also because it is going

to

Post by monty19@ hotmail.com
confuse new users.

And when we are trying to tell new users that a Linux distribution comes
with everything that you could possible want or need, and then it
doesn't...
because they downloaded the wrong 'targeted' ISO, they're going to be
dissapointed, and discouraged... to put it lightly.

Me... I want an ISO that has 'everything' on it (that it can), and then
let me select what I need, without forcing me to have a network connection
to search for missing stuff. The biggest trouble I see with the
post-download
approach is that when I or a new user comes along, I'd rather have the
'other' apps, sitting in my face, so that I can say yes, or no; rather
than try to hunt for an app I don't even know exists. For example,
last night I spent a few hours playing with a Knoppix DVD, just to find
out and experience a lot of new apps, some of which I had never heard of
before (and I've been a Linux user/developer for 10 years now, but that
still doesn't mean I know everything.)

And in a similar vein, I'd still like the Fedora installer to have an
'install everything on the media' option like the old version did.

Thanks for listening.
Fulko




This document is strictly confidential and intended only for use by the addressee unless otherwise stated. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and delete it from your system.

[Horst H. von Brand]

Post by Fulko.Hew
I agree completely with what monty19 wrote, so I'm going to
paraphrase/extract
their important points as they apply to me.

Post by monty19@ hotmail.com
Personally, I think having separate ISO images for Desktop, Developer,
Server, KDE, and whatever else is a pretty silly idea

Ditto here. But then again, it is a free world... maybe it works out for
the better.

Post by Fulko.Hew
I run Fedora on systems I would classify as a server/Desktop/Developer
Workstation, and so would everybody else that I personally know.

Same here. But we ran some servers on Fedora a while back (later moved to
White Box and then CentOS).

Post by Fulko.Hew

Post by monty19@ hotmail.com
Regardless of classification though, it takes just one DVD to install
any systems I have.

Wouldn't we all like that... problem is, that one would turn out /huge/.
And then the wining about "why should I get 8GiB just to install 2"
starts...

Post by Fulko.Hew

Post by monty19@ hotmail.com
I look at it this way; if you're going to download two ISO images, then
why not download two that have all the packages you want. Why
download a server disc, and a desktop disc, which may both be lacking
packages you want to install, and then are forced to download anyway...

OK, today you get 5 CDs with everything (or one DVD). Now you will be able
to get exactly what you want and build your own CD sets. What is lost here?

Post by Fulko.Hew

Post by monty19@ hotmail.com
I just can't help but feel like this is a less than ideal turn of
direction for Fedora, not just for the reasons above, but also because
it is going to confuse new users.

Let's try and see. Nobody says the spins have to be official, there could
well be the "LUG of <someplace> spin" or "My spin for rescue/repair" too.
If some gets wildly popular, more power to them.

Post by Fulko.Hew
And when we are trying to tell new users that a Linux distribution comes
with everything that you could possible want or need, and then it
doesn't... because they downloaded the wrong 'targeted' ISO, they're
going to be dissapointed, and discouraged... to put it lightly.

Have to tell everybody upfront what is included and what isn't. It is not
like Fedora has "everything you could possibly want or need" today...

Post by Fulko.Hew
And in a similar vein, I'd still like the Fedora installer to have an
'install everything on the media' option like the old version did.

That option was/is nonsense, as has been explained on this list in endless
flamewars. Won't happen again, and good riddance.

[Michal Jaegermann]

Post by Horst H. von Brand
OK, today you get 5 CDs with everything (or one DVD). Now you will be able
to get exactly what you want and build your own CD sets. What is lost here?

Lost here is that little detail that not every user sits at the
end of a very fast Internet connection without any limits on
how much they can download. It appears that a bandwidth of a DVD,
or a bunch of CDs, is grossly underestimated here.

I also played a bit with 'pungi', i.e. an application which creates
those custom spins. Among other resources, like time and knowledge,
which were really required to do something with it, sizeable chunks
of a free disk space were also needed and very far from "somewhere"
on the disk. Big pieces had to be in specific locations or else ...
By "sizeable" I mean something of an order of 30 GB although with
something smaller you should be able to get away with less
(in practice we are still talking about tens of gigabytes and
you better not underestimate).

Sometimes this is ok. In other situations I will need to deal with
there will be no way to get even much smaller space for something
of that sort.

Michal

[Charles Curley]

Post by monty19@ hotmail.com
Personally, I think having separate ISO images for Desktop,
Developer, Server, KDE, and whatever else is a pretty silly idea.

I agree. I've been using Unix since before some of the folks around
here were in diapers, and I've always had at least one box that was
"desktop" and "server" and several other functions combined. I find
the whole "desktop" and "server" distinction artificial, naive and
useless. For example, I've always had an FTP server on my "desktop",
and added an HTTP server shortly after the NCSA released what has
since become Apache.

A few questions, then:

* Methinks this approach produces a lot of overlap. For any "spin",
you need a kernel, you need X, etc. Do I then need to pull in
several different CDs or DVDs, one for each "spin"? Or will there
be, say, a "minimum" CD, then a CD (or two) for desktop, and another
for server?

* I usually set up an NFS mount for installations. Until now I've put
all three or four CDs into that directory, and away I go. How does
this "spin" stuff affect NFS mount installations: do I throw the
multiple DVD images into one directory and export that, do do I
export multiple directories?

* I maintain a local base repo, using the DVD images via a loopback
mount. Once installation is complete, how do I set up my base repo(s)?

* I have, until now, had enough spare capacity on my laptop to keep a
DVD install image on it. I can carry one CD and my laptop, and I can
install Fedora for any use anywhere. Does this "spin" approach break
that capability?

Yes, I know there will be the ability to roll my own distribution
(which is vaporware at this point). So now, in addition to the time
it takes to pull in multiple CD/DVD images, do I now get to spend
more time creating my "custom" disty? Great, that's just what I
need: another computer maintenance job.

* How does this affect users in poor countries, where neither
bandwidth nor hard drive space are cheap? Even with the ability to
roll one's own distribution, how many poor country users do these
costs price Fedora beyond reach?

I don't need immediate answers to these questions, but I would like
some assurance that they have been brought up and addressed.
--
Charles Curley /"\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign
Looking for fine software \ / Respect for open standards
and/or writing? X No HTML/RTF in email
http://www.charlescurley.com / \ No M$ Word docs in email

Key fingerprint = CE5C 6645 A45A 64E4 94C0 809C FFF6 4C48 4ECD DFDB
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[Bruno Wolff III]

On Sun, Feb 04, 2007 at 20:19:45 +0000,

Post by monty19@ hotmail.com
Personally, I think having separate ISO images for Desktop, Developer,
Server, KDE, and whatever else is a pretty silly idea. It's one of the
main reasons I don't like Ubuntu. I run Fedora on a system I would

I think it is a bit early to declare custom spins a silly idea. Even if it
doesn't turn out to be that useful for Fedora directly, there is a potential
for it to be useful for third parties. I think making it easy to define
custom spins is an interesting experiment and that we will need to wait a
bit before we find out whether or not it is a really useful feature or not.

[James Hubbard]

Post by Bruno Wolff III
On Sun, Feb 04, 2007 at 20:19:45 +0000,

Post by monty19@ hotmail.com
Personally, I think having separate ISO images for Desktop, Developer,
Server, KDE, and whatever else is a pretty silly idea. It's one of the
main reasons I don't like Ubuntu. I run Fedora on a system I would

I think it is a bit early to declare custom spins a silly idea. Even if it
doesn't turn out to be that useful for Fedora directly, there is a potential
for it to be useful for third parties. I think making it easy to define
custom spins is an interesting experiment and that we will need to wait a
bit before we find out whether or not it is a really useful feature or not.

Indeed, they're not silly. One of the projects that I have worked on
, we created custom FC5 installation DVDs for a lab environment that
had all of the software that we needed including updated packages.
It's very useful ability.

However, as I stated in another thread. It needs to be obvious what
CD/DVD has the developer tools. There are many people that cannot
access yum repos because they're in a location that cannot access the
Internet. Having someone create a custom spin is not always possible
when the one receiving it is many miles away. (There's always snail
mail.)

Don't get me wrong. I think that it's a good idea to have these
user/task specific spins. I do think that you should have one that
has "everything".

[Jesse Keating]

Don't get me wrong. ?I think that it's a good idea to have these
user/task specific spins. ?I do think that you should have one that
has "everything".

Even if it is 2 DVDs?
--
Jesse Keating
Release Engineer: Fedora
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[James Hubbard]

Post by Jesse Keating

Don't get me wrong. I think that it's a good idea to have these
user/task specific spins. I do think that you should have one that
has "everything".

Even if it is 2 DVDs?

Two DVDs sounds like a lot. I would prefer 1 DVD. However, I believe
that I thought the same thing when RedHat went to more than 1 CD.
(When did that happen?)

When I put everything in quotes, I don't mean that all of the packages
have to go onto the DVD. I don't know what would go in and what would
stay out though.

[Jesse Keating]

Two DVDs sounds like a lot. ?I would prefer 1 DVD. ?However, I believe
that I thought the same thing when RedHat went to more than 1 CD.
(When did that happen?)
When I put everything in quotes, I don't mean that all of the packages
have to go onto the DVD. ?I don't know what would go in and what would
stay out though.

Heh, that's the game we're trying to play here, figure out what goes on and
what doesn't. Plus there are countries where DVD hardware/media is still
vastly more expensive so you have to consider the CD count too, 8 CDs
anybody? Mirrors would strangle me if I asked them to mirror 8 CDs, 2 DVDs *
3 arches.
--
Jesse Keating
Release Engineer: Fedora
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[Chuck Anderson]

Post by Jesse Keating
Heh, that's the game we're trying to play here, figure out what goes on and
what doesn't. Plus there are countries where DVD hardware/media is still
vastly more expensive so you have to consider the CD count too, 8 CDs
anybody? Mirrors would strangle me if I asked them to mirror 8 CDs, 2 DVDs *
3 arches.

Yes, we need to start using something like Jigdo to reduce wasted data
duplication.

[Jesse Keating]

Post by Chuck Anderson
Yes, we need to start using something like Jigdo to reduce wasted data
duplication.

Everytime this is mentioned, various mirror folks cringe. Not sure why, I've
been far too focused on other stuff to make a serious look into jigdo.
--
Jesse Keating
Release Engineer: Fedora
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[Chuck Anderson]

Post by Jesse Keating

Post by Chuck Anderson
Yes, we need to start using something like Jigdo to reduce wasted data
duplication.

Everytime this is mentioned, various mirror folks cringe. Not sure why, I've
been far too focused on other stuff to make a serious look into jigdo.

Mirror folks shouldn't need to care. They get .jigdo and .template
files instead of .iso files. They don't need to create the .iso files
themselves if they don't want to.

[Jeremy Katz]

Post by Chuck Anderson

Post by Jesse Keating
Heh, that's the game we're trying to play here, figure out what goes on and
what doesn't. Plus there are countries where DVD hardware/media is still
vastly more expensive so you have to consider the CD count too, 8 CDs
anybody? Mirrors would strangle me if I asked them to mirror 8 CDs, 2 DVDs *
3 arches.

Yes, we need to start using something like Jigdo to reduce wasted data
duplication.

Frankly, I see enough bugs where people can't manage to download and
burn an ISO successfully that I really don't want to see things get
worse by encouraging something like jigdo.

Jeremy

[Thorsten Leemhuis]

Post by Jeremy Katz

Post by Chuck Anderson

Post by Jesse Keating
Heh, that's the game we're trying to play here, figure out what goes on and
what doesn't. Plus there are countries where DVD hardware/media is still
vastly more expensive so you have to consider the CD count too, 8 CDs
anybody? Mirrors would strangle me if I asked them to mirror 8 CDs, 2 DVDs *
3 arches.

Yes, we need to start using something like Jigdo to reduce wasted data
duplication.

Frankly, I see enough bugs where people can't manage to download and
burn an ISO successfully that I really don't want to see things get
worse by encouraging something like jigdo.

I'd sometimes would like to see us use jigdo -- e.g. to push out a RC
after test3 and before the actual release. We did that once (FC3) iirc,
but used mainly rsync for similar purposes for it (rsync is probably
also great to fix a image if jigdo did it wrong).

CU
thl

[Kevin DeKorte]

Post by Jesse Keating

Post by James Hubbard
Two DVDs sounds like a lot. I would prefer 1 DVD. However, I believe
that I thought the same thing when RedHat went to more than 1 CD.
(When did that happen?)
When I put everything in quotes, I don't mean that all of the packages
have to go onto the DVD. I don't know what would go in and what would
stay out though.

Heh, that's the game we're trying to play here, figure out what goes on and
what doesn't. Plus there are countries where DVD hardware/media is still
vastly more expensive so you have to consider the CD count too, 8 CDs
anybody? Mirrors would strangle me if I asked them to mirror 8 CDs, 2 DVDs *
3 arches.

Jesse,

That is a tough call as to what to keep, but I do think that the stuff
that was in core is a good place to start for an "everything" CD.

However, I come from the other side of this. I want a single CD
(preferred)/DVD where I can boot it and it will help me setup and
install, but download all the packages I selected directly off the net
if they are updated or off the media if they are not, perhaps this is
what the live CD does and if so, great. Nothing more annoying to me,
than to install a new OS and then download 500+MB of patches. Why
couldn't it just get the current stuff to begin with? Normally when I
install Fedora, I don't select anything optional to install [desktop
apps (ie OO), dev tools, etc] and then after I am up and running I start
installing those items off the net. But I come from a POV where
bandwidth is unlimited and fast.

Kevin

- --
Get my public GnuPG key from
http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x7D0BD5D1

[Jesse Keating]

Post by Kevin DeKorte
However, I come from the other side of this. I want a single CD
(preferred)/DVD where I can boot it and it will help me setup and
install, but download all the packages I selected directly off the net
if they are updated or off the media if they are not, perhaps this is
what the live CD does and if so, great. Nothing more annoying to me,
than to install a new OS and then download 500+MB of patches. Why
couldn't it just get the current stuff to begin with? Normally when I
install Fedora, I don't select anything optional to install [desktop
apps (ie OO), dev tools, etc] and then after I am up and running I start
installing those items off the net. ?But I come from a POV where
bandwidth is unlimited and fast.

There is a design flaw/bug somewhere in how rpm/yum interacts with iso media
(CD, DVD, NFS ISO) that prevents being able to enable updates correctly at
install time.

However if you start with say boot.iso and point to a network install point
(exploaded tree, not nfs iso), then you can add the updates repos during the
install and only the new packages will be installed. We're working to make
this a smoother experience, but it will take time.
--
Jesse Keating
Release Engineer: Fedora
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[Gilboa Davara]

Post by Jesse Keating

Post by Kevin DeKorte
However, I come from the other side of this. I want a single CD
(preferred)/DVD where I can boot it and it will help me setup and
install, but download all the packages I selected directly off the net
if they are updated or off the media if they are not, perhaps this is
what the live CD does and if so, great. Nothing more annoying to me,
than to install a new OS and then download 500+MB of patches. Why
couldn't it just get the current stuff to begin with? Normally when I
install Fedora, I don't select anything optional to install [desktop
apps (ie OO), dev tools, etc] and then after I am up and running I start
installing those items off the net. But I come from a POV where
bandwidth is unlimited and fast.

There is a design flaw/bug somewhere in how rpm/yum interacts with iso media
(CD, DVD, NFS ISO) that prevents being able to enable updates correctly at
install time.
However if you start with say boot.iso and point to a network install point
(exploaded tree, not nfs iso), then you can add the updates repos during the
install and only the new packages will be installed. We're working to make
this a smoother experience, but it will take time.

Any chance -updates repo will be enabled (or enable-able) during setup
in F7?
Will it require network install or will it support normal installs
(NFS-files, NFS-iso, ISO)

- Gilboa

[Jesse Keating]

Post by Gilboa Davara
Any chance -updates repo will be enabled (or enable-able) during setup
in F7?
Will it require network install or will it support normal installs
(NFS-files, NFS-iso, ISO)

At this point, I'm not confident that the yum/rpm/isomedia issue will be
resolved for F7 final, but that's not my area so I don't have any
authoritative say on it.

That said, it should be pretty easy to add the repo yourself at install time
if you know that you aren't using an isomedia style install.
--
Jesse Keating
Release Engineer: Fedora
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[Gilboa Davara]

Post by Jesse Keating

Post by Gilboa Davara
Any chance -updates repo will be enabled (or enable-able) during setup
in F7?
Will it require network install or will it support normal installs
(NFS-files, NFS-iso, ISO)

At this point, I'm not confident that the yum/rpm/isomedia issue will be
resolved for F7 final, but that's not my area so I don't have any
authoritative say on it.
That said, it should be pretty easy to add the repo yourself at install time
if you know that you aren't using an isomedia style install.

Assuming that the Anaconda yum-back-end is aware of the
installation-media-type, why not enable -updates (or at least add UI
support for it) if the installation media is not isomedia?

- Gilboa

[Jesse Keating]

Post by Gilboa Davara
Assuming that the Anaconda yum-back-end is aware of the
installation-media-type, why not enable -updates (or at least add UI
support for it) if the installation media is not isomedia?

That's up to the Anaconda developers. See anaconda-devel-list
--
Jesse Keating
Release Engineer: Fedora
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[Gilboa Davara]

Post by Jesse Keating

Post by Gilboa Davara
Assuming that the Anaconda yum-back-end is aware of the
installation-media-type, why not enable -updates (or at least add UI
support for it) if the installation media is not isomedia?

That's up to the Anaconda developers. See anaconda-devel-list

Thanks.
I'll check the archive.

- Gilboa

[Horst H. von Brand]

Jesse Keating <jkeating at redhat.com> wrote:

[...]

Post by Jesse Keating
Heh, that's the game we're trying to play here, figure out what goes on
and what doesn't. Plus there are countries where DVD hardware/media is
still vastly more expensive so you have to consider the CD count too, 8
CDs anybody? Mirrors would strangle me if I asked them to mirror 8 CDs,
2 DVDs * 3 arches.

There are mirrors who only carry some arches. Perhaps make the DVDs
optional for mirrors?

[Jesse Keating]

Post by Horst H. von Brand
There are mirrors who only carry some arches. Perhaps make the DVDs
optional for mirrors?

Either the directory structure gets far more complicated, or the mirror
scripts mirrors use and how we list mirrors too users gets much more
complicated.
--
Jesse Keating
Release Engineer: Fedora
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[n0dalus]

Post by Jesse Keating
Heh, that's the game we're trying to play here, figure out what goes on and
what doesn't.

It shouldn't be a game at all. We _need_ to be collecting stats on
what packages are used the most and then using that to make informed
decisions -- not just playing some game of pick and hope.

Could this be done with one of the most-used mirror's access logs?

n0dalus.

[Gregory Maxwell]

Post by n0dalus

Post by Jesse Keating
Heh, that's the game we're trying to play here, figure out what goes on and
what doesn't.

It shouldn't be a game at all. We _need_ to be collecting stats on
what packages are used the most and then using that to make informed
decisions -- not just playing some game of pick and hope.
Could this be done with one of the most-used mirror's access logs?

+1

Perhaps then we'll stop excluding the F*#$@*# compiler from 'desktop
installs' since that kills some apps like gnofract4d and makes it
impossible to build little unix tools. Contrary to popular belief,
not everyone who needs the compiler is a developer. People who are
remarkably non-geeky can manage to ./configure; make ... at least
until they have to spend a day getting the all the -devel dependencies
installed which would have been pulled in automatically if they had a
developer/workstation install. :)

I'd also support a two DVD install, where disk one was the
desktop/workstaion while disk two was the server+stuff thats less
frequently installed. This would reduce the number of people who need
both disks.

[Jesse Keating]

Post by Gregory Maxwell
installs' since that kills some apps like gnofract4d

How is gcc not available to you when you install gnofact4d? You make it sound
like we took all those packages away for Fedora 7, instead we just left them
on the mirrors instead of on the Media for the Desktop (not Workstation)
spin, the first trial spin.

*ooooooh, change is scary*
--
Jesse Keating
Release Engineer: Fedora
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[Dr. Diesel]

I'm with the size reduction group. Minimal install and yum for the
rest. For example, I never install Openoffice cause there is usually
already an updated version, why install it then have to download the
same amount for the update?

Create a basic install CD, then hit the repos for the packages that
interest you, then you'll be getting the latest on the first run. Of
course this doesn't work for dialup people but......

Post by Jesse Keating

Post by Gregory Maxwell
installs' since that kills some apps like gnofract4d

How is gcc not available to you when you install gnofact4d? You make it sound
like we took all those packages away for Fedora 7, instead we just left them
on the mirrors instead of on the Media for the Desktop (not Workstation)
spin, the first trial spin.
*ooooooh, change is scary*
--
Jesse Keating
Release Engineer: Fedora
--
fedora-test-list mailing list
fedora-test-list at redhat.com
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-test-list

[Robin Laing]

Post by Dr. Diesel
I'm with the size reduction group. Minimal install and yum for the
rest. For example, I never install Openoffice cause there is usually
already an updated version, why install it then have to download the
same amount for the update?
Create a basic install CD, then hit the repos for the packages that
interest you, then you'll be getting the latest on the first run. Of
course this doesn't work for dialup people but......

I like the benefit of this. Just keep a current and patched basic
installer on the mirrors.

But I do see two issues. One as mentioned, this will affect the dial-up
users. But then dial-up users are going to be affected anyways due to
the number up updates from the ISO image to the latest. Using this
method will involve about the same amount of bandwidth but only once.

How do you do an install on a system that isn't on the net? This is
where the DVD with a full set of applications is better. Now if you
have a database of applications and information that can be searched, it
would make this better with a custom spin.

On this note, have an installer with search or information tools similar
to what is in Yumex for those that want the point-click experience.

[Jim Cornette]

Post by Dr. Diesel
I'm with the size reduction group. Minimal install and yum for the
rest. For example, I never install Openoffice cause there is usually
already an updated version, why install it then have to download the
same amount for the update?

This does give an idea that packages which are updated frequently should
be located on install media which is more flexible. Package which are
pretty much stabilized and things the program set out to do are well
planned and updates are rare should be located on fixed media.

One could probably get a good idea as to which packages contribute to
the need for upgrade frequently once the install media was used to
install the static install media by tracing the updates and testing
frequency from FC6.

Post by Dr. Diesel
Create a basic install CD, then hit the repos for the packages that
interest you, then you'll be getting the latest on the first run. Of
course this doesn't work for dialup people but......

With static media available, the dial up user would be stuck with
possibly a system that would have possible security flaws since
downloading on dial-up is a bit of a challenge.

I don't know what possible alternatives would work out to make a never
changing media for the initial installation and media for the constantly
evolving programs.

Basically this thread seems to be a good discussion and some very good
ideas were presented rationally. I bow out now since most of the ideas
which I agree with were already presented by others on the thread.

Jim

[Chris Adams]

Post by Jesse Keating

Post by Gregory Maxwell
installs' since that kills some apps like gnofract4d

How is gcc not available to you when you install gnofact4d?

What part of "not every computer has Internet access" doesn't make
sense?

[Matthias Clasen]

Post by Chris Adams

Post by Jesse Keating

Post by Gregory Maxwell
installs' since that kills some apps like gnofract4d

How is gcc not available to you when you install gnofact4d?

What part of "not every computer has Internet access" doesn't make
sense?

If gnofract4d needs gcc, then the package must Require: it. Then
including gnofract4d in a spin would automatically drag gcc in. It would
also make us think twice about including gnofract4d, though...

[Jesse Keating]

Post by Chris Adams
What part of "not every computer has Internet access" doesn't make
sense?

Without gnofract4d on the install media, how do you get it onto the system
without some sort of network access? If you have some sort of network
access, then you can rely on a local mirror of the repos to satisfy your
deps.
--
Jesse Keating
Release Engineer: Fedora
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[Gilboa Davara]

Post by Gregory Maxwell

Post by n0dalus

Post by Jesse Keating
Heh, that's the game we're trying to play here, figure out what goes on and
what doesn't.

It shouldn't be a game at all. We _need_ to be collecting stats on
what packages are used the most and then using that to make informed
decisions -- not just playing some game of pick and hope.
Could this be done with one of the most-used mirror's access logs?

+1
installs' since that kills some apps like gnofract4d and makes it
impossible to build little unix tools. Contrary to popular belief,
not everyone who needs the compiler is a developer. People who are
remarkably non-geeky can manage to ./configure; make ... at least
until they have to spend a day getting the all the -devel dependencies
installed which would have been pulled in automatically if they had a
developer/workstation install. :)

/+1.

People that use out-of-tree modules (E.g. webcams) and/or binary blob
drivers (ATI, nVidia, etc) might find the lack of a compiler quite...
err... amusing.

- Gilboa

[Jesse Keating]

Post by n0dalus
It shouldn't be a game at all. We _need_ to be collecting stats on
what packages are used the most and then using that to make informed
decisions -- not just playing some game of pick and hope.
Could this be done with one of the most-used mirror's access logs?

Won't really do much good. Many folks have software on the system that is
never used, just because it was in the default, or even worse, in the
Everything install before we killed that, and now its just being updated
along with all the other crud on the system, but never actually used.

However, any kind of application usage tracking gets dangerously close to
personal information that I'd rather not collect.
--
Jesse Keating
Release Engineer: Fedora
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[Adam Glenn]

Post by n0dalus
Could this be done with one of the most-used mirror's access logs?

There's no reason we couldn't also use the information gathered from
other sources like:

Ubuntu
http://popcon.ubuntu.com/

Source Forge
http://sourceforge.net/top/topalltime.php?type=downloads

Freshmeat
http://freshmeat.net/stats/popularity/?expand=popularity#popularity

etc.

[James Hubbard]

Post by Jesse Keating

Post by James Hubbard
When I put everything in quotes, I don't mean that all of the packages
have to go onto the DVD. I don't know what would go in and what would
stay out though.

Heh, that's the game we're trying to play here, figure out what goes on and
what doesn't. Plus there are countries where DVD hardware/media is still
vastly more expensive so you have to consider the CD count too, 8 CDs
anybody? Mirrors would strangle me if I asked them to mirror 8 CDs, 2 DVDs *
3 arches.

Where's the list of packages that go into each spin?

[Jesse Keating]

Post by James Hubbard
Where's the list of packages that go into each spin?

They are being developed over time.

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeatureFedoraDesktop/PackageList

lists the packages we specifically ask for, and then let pungi depsolve.
--
Jesse Keating
Release Engineer: Fedora
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[Michael Wiktowy]

Post by Jesse Keating

Post by James Hubbard
Where's the list of packages that go into each spin?

They are being developed over time.
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeatureFedoraDesktop/PackageList
lists the packages we specifically ask for, and then let pungi depsolve.

Is there some mechanism in all this to pull packages into a spin but
not set them to install by default? Or is the current group selection
/ package selection going away in favour of a system where you make
your package selections at ISO build time and then install additional
packages later via network?

/Mike

[Jesse Keating]

Post by Michael Wiktowy
Is there some mechanism in all this to pull packages into a spin but
not set them to install by default? Or is the current group selection
/ package selection going away in favour of a system where you make
your package selections at ISO build time and then install additional
packages later via network?

A package manifest is just a flat file of packages to put on the media.

A comps file is what defines the groupings of these packages and what is
default/manditory/optional.
--
Jesse Keating
Release Engineer: Fedora
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[Michael Wiktowy]

Post by Jesse Keating

Post by Michael Wiktowy
Is there some mechanism in all this to pull packages into a spin but
not set them to install by default? Or is the current group selection
/ package selection going away in favour of a system where you make
your package selections at ISO build time and then install additional
packages later via network?

A package manifest is just a flat file of packages to put on the media.
A comps file is what defines the groupings of these packages and what is
default/manditory/optional.

As pungi seems to digest comps.xml files for its package input, I am
not sure what the problem would be to make a big DVD spin with all the
groupings that an admin would need to install. I would assume that you
just feed pungi a bunch of comps.xml files or yumgroups.xml files and
you will have all your different sub-spins in one big DVD spin. Isn't
this how things will work or am I way off?

/Mike

[Jesse Keating]

Post by Michael Wiktowy
As pungi seems to digest comps.xml files for its package input, I am
not sure what the problem would be to make a big DVD spin with all the
groupings that an admin would need to install. I would assume that you
just feed pungi a bunch of comps.xml files or yumgroups.xml files and
you will have all your different sub-spins in one big DVD spin. Isn't
this how things will work or am I way off?

In fc6 pungi culled a package list from comps. In rawhide a separate manifest
file is used.
--
Jesse Keating
Release Engineer: Fedora
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[Arthur Pemberton]

Post by Jesse Keating

Post by Michael Wiktowy
As pungi seems to digest comps.xml files for its package input, I am
not sure what the problem would be to make a big DVD spin with all the
groupings that an admin would need to install. I would assume that you
just feed pungi a bunch of comps.xml files or yumgroups.xml files and
you will have all your different sub-spins in one big DVD spin. Isn't
this how things will work or am I way off?

In fc6 pungi culled a package list from comps. In rawhide a separate manifest
file is used.
--
Jesse Keating
Release Engineer: Fedora

Jesse (if I may call you that) can you confirm yes or no on if there
will be an everything install image for those who want? Seems like the
only cost would be that of bandwidth...and I would suggest that this
image be made available only via bittorrent or other p2p. Doing this
seems like it would solve some complaints of others that I can't claim
to understand.

Peace

[Jesse Keating]

Post by Arthur Pemberton
Jesse (if I may call you that) can you confirm yes or no on if there
will be an everything install image for those who want? Seems like the
only cost would be that of bandwidth...and I would suggest that this
image be made available only via bittorrent or other p2p. Doing this
seems like it would solve some complaints of others that I can't claim
to understand.

The Fedora board had a meeting at FUDCon and one of the things they talked
about was what we will spin for F7. One of those things would be a monster
everything in the collection spin, isos of which may only be offered via
bittorrent (provided the torrent server has enough disk space to host
these...)

These are not set in stone yet, the board still needs to discuss things with
me to make sure my software can accomplish what they want in a reasonable
time, and we have the right to change things leading up to Test2.
--
Jesse Keating
Release Engineer: Fedora
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[cornel panceac]

thank you. that would be great.

Post by Jesse Keating

Post by Arthur Pemberton
Jesse (if I may call you that) can you confirm yes or no on if there
will be an everything install image for those who want? Seems like the
only cost would be that of bandwidth...and I would suggest that this
image be made available only via bittorrent or other p2p. Doing this
seems like it would solve some complaints of others that I can't claim
to understand.

The Fedora board had a meeting at FUDCon and one of the things they talked
about was what we will spin for F7. One of those things would be a monster
everything in the collection spin, isos of which may only be offered via
bittorrent (provided the torrent server has enough disk space to host
these...)
These are not set in stone yet, the board still needs to discuss things with
me to make sure my software can accomplish what they want in a reasonable
time, and we have the right to change things leading up to Test2.
--
Jesse Keating
Release Engineer: Fedora
--
fedora-test-list mailing list
fedora-test-list at redhat.com
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-test-list

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[Tony Molloy]

Post by cornel panceac
thank you. that would be great.

Post by Jesse Keating

Post by Arthur Pemberton
Jesse (if I may call you that) can you confirm yes or no on if
there will be an everything install image for those who want? Seems
like the only cost would be that of bandwidth...and I would suggest
that this image be made available only via bittorrent or other p2p.
Doing this seems like it would solve some complaints of others that
I can't claim to understand.

The Fedora board had a meeting at FUDCon and one of the things they
talked about was what we will spin for F7. One of those things would
be a monster
everything in the collection spin, isos of which may only be offered
via bittorrent (provided the torrent server has enough disk space to
host these...)

Would that include everything in core and extras. If so that would be
fantastic.

Tony

Post by cornel panceac

Post by Jesse Keating
These are not set in stone yet, the board still needs to discuss things with
me to make sure my software can accomplish what they want in a
reasonable time, and we have the right to change things leading up to
Test2.
--
Jesse Keating
Release Engineer: Fedora
--
fedora-test-list mailing list
fedora-test-list at redhat.com
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-test-list

[Jesse Keating]

Post by Tony Molloy
Would that include everything in core and extras. If so that would be
fantastic.

yes, all 2+ DVDs worth.
--
Jesse Keating
Release Engineer: Fedora
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[Arthur Pemberton]

Post by Jesse Keating

Post by Tony Molloy
Would that include everything in core and extras. If so that would be
fantastic.

yes, all 2+ DVDs worth.

See how easy it is to make a geek happy?

[Andrew Parker]

Post by Arthur Pemberton

Post by Jesse Keating

Post by Tony Molloy
Would that include everything in core and extras. If so that would be
fantastic.

yes, all 2+ DVDs worth.

See how easy it is to make a geek happy?

mulitple geeks - i'm happy too :))

[Gilboa Davara]

Post by Jesse Keating

Post by Tony Molloy
Would that include everything in core and extras. If so that would be
fantastic.

yes, all 2+ DVDs worth.

I remember hearing something about x86_64 hitting 3 DVDs with multilib.
Am I correct?

- Gilboa

[Jesse Keating]

Post by Gilboa Davara
I remember hearing something about x86_64 hitting 3 DVDs with multilib.
Am I correct?

I do believe so. I'll probably do a compose today to see how painful it is.
--
Jesse Keating
Release Engineer: Fedora
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[Bruno Wolff III]

On Mon, Feb 05, 2007 at 10:56:48 -0500,

Post by Jesse Keating

Don't get me wrong. ?I think that it's a good idea to have these
user/task specific spins. ?I do think that you should have one that
has "everything".

Even if it is 2 DVDs?

If its 2, it just barely fits on them. I grabbed all of F7T1 core+extras on
Saturday and my memory is that it was a bit over 8GB.
Even if it is still 2 today, it probably will be 3 in the near future.

[Jesse Keating]

Post by Bruno Wolff III
If its 2, it just barely fits on them. I grabbed all of F7T1 core+extras on
Saturday and my memory is that it was a bit over 8GB.
Even if it is still 2 today, it probably will be 3 in the near future.

Was this i386? x86_64 is most likely 3 then, with the compat arch packages.
Same for ppc.
--
Jesse Keating
Release Engineer: Fedora
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[Fulko.Hew]

Post by Jesse Keating

Don't get me wrong. ?I think that it's a good idea to have these
user/task specific spins. ?I do think that you should have one that
has "everything".

Even if it is 2 DVDs?

One vote for 'yes'.



This document is strictly confidential and intended only for use by the addressee unless otherwise stated. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and delete it from your system.

[Alfredo Ferrari]

Post by Fulko.Hew

Post by Jesse Keating

Don't get me wrong. ?I think that it's a good idea to have these
user/task specific spins. ?I do think that you should have one that
has "everything".

Even if it is 2 DVDs?

One vote for 'yes'.
This document is strictly confidential and intended only for use by the addressee unless otherwise stated. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and delete it from your system.

Another vote for 'yes'

[monty19@ hotmail.com]

Post by Bruno Wolff III
I think it is a bit early to declare custom spins a silly idea. Even if it
doesn't turn out to be that useful for Fedora directly, there is a
potential
for it to be useful for third parties. I think making it easy to define
custom spins is an interesting experiment and that we will need to wait a
bit before we find out whether or not it is a really useful feature or not.

I was not suggesting that custom spins are a silly idea. Like I said in my
original message, "I'm not saying that the ability to create your own disc
with just the software you want is necessarilly a bad thing either; it's
just that with the current route there are going to be a lot more people
making their own discs, than downloading the ones created by the Fedora
team, and then what's the point of releasing any at all?"

Rather it's just that the only 1.90GB "Desktop" image I've seen/downloaded
seems sorely lacking, as compared to what I perceive as most users wanting.
Granted my view could be skewed and wrong...

Also, everyone keeps talking about these tools to make it easy to create
your own spin. If it's going to be a simple to use Linux/Windows (for the
new users) binary that downloads everything you say you want, creates an
ISO, and then all you have to do is burn it an install per the usual, then I
guess who cares what is released as far as Fedora created ISO images.

But, I haven't seen these tools; only vague mention of them so far (do they
exist?) so what I'm looking at is the image(s) that Fedora is releasing. If
the tools for creating your own ISO are simple, user friendly, and really do
cover every step of the download/creation process, save actually burning the
disc, then I guess it would negate any concern about what 'default' (for
lack of a better word) images Fedora is releasing...

Afterall what's the difference between downloading a large ISO image, and
downloading a small utility that downloads everything it needs to create a
large ISO image and creates it all behind the scenes...

[Jesse Keating]

I was not suggesting that custom spins are a silly idea. ?Like I said in my
original message, "I'm not saying that the ability to create your own disc
with just the software you want is necessarilly a bad thing either; it's
just that with the current route there are going to be a lot more people
making their own discs, than downloading the ones created by the Fedora
team, and then what's the point of releasing any at all?"

There is far more involved in making a release than just uploading isos
somewhere. Freeze / schedule management, creating a stable tree from which
to do composes from, QA of the tree, bugfixes, etc, etc... The generated isos
are just one part of the output, the exploaded tree is the far more important
part, as well as the static package repositories the release was composed
from.

Rather it's just that the only 1.90GB "Desktop" image I've seen/downloaded
seems sorely lacking, as compared to what I perceive as most users wanting.
? Granted my view could be skewed and wrong...

A lot of the voices on this list are the technical user sides, not necessarily
the "Desktop" side. We're all more "Developer Workstation" type folks, who
want not only a nice desktop to use, but development tools and even some
services available.

Also, everyone keeps talking about these tools to make it easy to create
your own spin. ?If it's going to be a simple to use Linux/Windows (for the
new users) binary that downloads everything you say you want, creates an
ISO, and then all you have to do is burn it an install per the usual, then
I guess who cares what is released as far as Fedora created ISO images.

pungi is the software I wrote and continue to write to do this. It is
available in Fedora Extras. Using it against rawhide is a bit rough, given
how quickly rawhide is likely to break and to break the compose process, but
the end goal is that you install pungi, you can tweak a package manifest
(flat list of package names) a bit to suite your needs, then
run /usr/bin/pungi -c /etc/pungi/yourconf. When it is done, you should have
a directory tree that is the exploaded install tree + iso sets. There are
even folks working on graphical front ends to this so you can graphically
select your packages and push a button to get an end result. This user
experience will improve over the course of Fedora 7 development, and beyond.
I hope that near the end of Fedora 7 development, when the tree has settled
down a bunch, it will be much easier for folks to do spins and to play with
the software.

But, I haven't seen these tools; only vague mention of them so far (do they
exist?) so what I'm looking at is the image(s) that Fedora is releasing.
?If the tools for creating your own ISO are simple, user friendly, and
really do cover every step of the download/creation process, save actually
burning the disc, then I guess it would negate any concern about what
'default' (for lack of a better word) images Fedora is releasing...

That is what pungi does. You hand it a list of packages you want, and a few
other config items, it finds those packages in yum repos, depsolves them,
downloads them, runs some anaconda tools on them, and produces a tree + iso
set.

Afterall what's the difference between downloading a large ISO image, and
downloading a small utility that downloads everything it needs to create a
large ISO image and creates it all behind the scenes...

With the large ISO set you're stuck with what we think should be on there, but
with the open tools, you can put what _you_ want on there.
--
Jesse Keating
Release Engineer: Fedora
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[Charles Curley]

Post by Jesse Keating
pungi is the software I wrote and continue to write to do this. It is
available in Fedora Extras. Using it against rawhide is a bit rough, given
how quickly rawhide is likely to break and to break the compose process, but
the end goal is that you install pungi, you can tweak a package manifest
(flat list of package names) a bit to suite your needs, then
run /usr/bin/pungi -c /etc/pungi/yourconf. When it is done, you should have
a directory tree that is the exploaded install tree + iso sets. There are
even folks working on graphical front ends to this so you can graphically
select your packages and push a button to get an end result. This user
experience will improve over the course of Fedora 7 development, and beyond.
I hope that near the end of Fedora 7 development, when the tree has settled
down a bunch, it will be much easier for folks to do spins and to play with
the software.
That is what pungi does. You hand it a list of packages you want, and a few
other config items, it finds those packages in yum repos, depsolves them,
downloads them, runs some anaconda tools on them, and produces a tree + iso
set.

Thank you. These comments answer some of my questions and help assuage
my concerns.

Perhaps one could use it to create a "pungi spin": A spin with pungi,
its deps, some related tools, network and ISO creation tools, and not
much else. Would all that fit onto a CD?

The user installs it, builds the custom install tree, and then
installs further from there. That would minimise traffic
considerably. It would require a bit of disk space, but even that is
preferable to slurping in several DVD-sized images with redundancies.
--
Charles Curley /"\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign
Looking for fine software \ / Respect for open standards
and/or writing? X No HTML/RTF in email
http://www.charlescurley.com / \ No M$ Word docs in email

Key fingerprint = CE5C 6645 A45A 64E4 94C0 809C FFF6 4C48 4ECD DFDB
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[Jesse Keating]

Post by Charles Curley
Perhaps one could use it to create a "pungi spin": A spin with pungi,
its deps, some related tools, network and ISO creation tools, and not
much else. Would all that fit onto a CD?

Sure, but do you want a GUI desktop and native language support? If so, we're
moving beyond 1 CD (:
--
Jesse Keating
Release Engineer: Fedora
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[Michal Jaegermann]

Post by monty19@ hotmail.com
Afterall what's the difference between downloading a large ISO image,
and downloading a small utility that downloads everything it needs to
create a large ISO image and creates it all behind the scenes...

An enormous one, to the point of "deal or no deal", if you happen to
get that large ISO image (put on some media) in a mail, or brought
in your backpack, or ...

Michal

[monty19@ hotmail.com]

Post by Jesse Keating
Even if it is 2 DVDs?

Yes

Post by Jesse Keating
Heh, that's the game we're trying to play here, figure out what goes on and
what doesn't. Plus there are countries where DVD hardware/media is still
vastly more expensive so you have to consider the CD count too, 8 CDs
anybody? Mirrors would strangle me if I asked them to mirror 8 CDs, 2 DVDs
* 3 arches.

I hadn't considered that, but the alternate route sounds just as bad.
Server, Desktop, and KDE? All maybe 2GB. That's almost as bad as one 4.7
and one partial DVD image. And what about the CD collections for them. How
many CD's total is that going to be per platform? Sounds like angry mirrors
either way. You can always give me their email addresses I guess; I like
arguiing with people; but on second thought that I might be a bad idea, as
you may end up with far less mirrors than you have now. ;)

But the question I asked before that still hasn't been answered, is how big
is Extras right now? It looks (probably quite desceptively) relatively
small when looking at the directory on download.fedora.redhat.com. Does the
sum total for Core and Extras really add up to more than the 4.7 GB that a
DVD would provide? Do you really even need two DVD images to get a complete
install?

[Chris Adams]

Post by monty19@ hotmail.com
But the question I asked before that still hasn't been answered, is how big
is Extras right now? It looks (probably quite desceptively) relatively
small when looking at the directory on download.fedora.redhat.com. Does
the sum total for Core and Extras really add up to more than the 4.7 GB
that a DVD would provide? Do you really even need two DVD images to get a
complete install?

$ du -sh core/development/i386/os/ extras/development/i386/
3.6G core/development/i386/os/
4.7G extras/development/i386/

I'm in the "don't like lots of spins" camp (I don't want to have to burn
a Desktop DVD, a KDE DVD, a Developer DVD, and a Server DVD just to
avoid burning a 2-DVD "full" set), but I also see the issue with an
explosion of CDs.

However: who says CDs and DVDs have to be the same "spins"? Have a
"desktop" slimmed-down CD spin as the CD set and a "full" spin as the
DVD set.

[Bruno Wolff III]

On Mon, Feb 05, 2007 at 16:26:02 +0000,

Post by monty19@ hotmail.com
But the question I asked before that still hasn't been answered, is how big
is Extras right now? It looks (probably quite desceptively) relatively
small when looking at the directory on download.fedora.redhat.com. Does
the sum total for Core and Extras really add up to more than the 4.7 GB
that a DVD would provide? Do you really even need two DVD images to get a
complete install?

On Saturday this is how big core+extras was:
[root at bruno f7]# du -k
1048 ./core/Fedora/base
3352576 ./core/Fedora/RPMS
3353632 ./core/Fedora
7832 ./core/images/xen
7304 ./core/images/pxeboot
149904 ./core/images
11208 ./core/repodata
192 ./core/stylesheet-images
7684 ./core/isolinux
3522936 ./core
8 ./extras/repodata/repoview
6836 ./extras/repodata
4876048 ./extras
8398992 .

[Arthur Pemberton]

Post by Bruno Wolff III
On Mon, Feb 05, 2007 at 16:26:02 +0000,

Post by monty19@ hotmail.com
But the question I asked before that still hasn't been answered, is how big
is Extras right now? It looks (probably quite desceptively) relatively
small when looking at the directory on download.fedora.redhat.com. Does
the sum total for Core and Extras really add up to more than the 4.7 GB
that a DVD would provide? Do you really even need two DVD images to get a
complete install?

[root at bruno f7]# du -k
1048 ./core/Fedora/base
3352576 ./core/Fedora/RPMS
3353632 ./core/Fedora
7832 ./core/images/xen
7304 ./core/images/pxeboot
149904 ./core/images
11208 ./core/repodata
192 ./core/stylesheet-images
7684 ./core/isolinux
3522936 ./core
8 ./extras/repodata/repoview
6836 ./extras/repodata
4876048 ./extras
8398992 .

About 8GB

[Peter Ennis]

Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 08:50:34 -0500

Me... I want an ISO that has 'everything' on it (that it can), and
then let me select what I need, without forcing me to have a network
connection to search for missing stuff.

++1 here
(Only one copy of each rpm is in 'everything')
I can then configure a box to my needs,
run yum update for all at once and reasonably expect
no rpm conflicts - and more important - so can a newbie.
It could be bit torrent only and burn your own DVD.
It will not be long before this becomes
"burn your own HD-DVD / BlueRay ..." for catering
to the growth of 'everything'.

Thanks,

Peter

[Andrew Parker]

Post by Fulko.Hew

Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 08:50:34 -0500

Me... I want an ISO that has 'everything' on it (that it can), and
then let me select what I need, without forcing me to have a network
connection to search for missing stuff.
++1 here
(Only one copy of each rpm is in 'everything')
I can then configure a box to my needs,
run yum update for all at once and reasonably expect
no rpm conflicts - and more important - so can a newbie.
It could be bit torrent only and burn your own DVD.
It will not be long before this becomes
"burn your own HD-DVD / BlueRay ..." for catering
to the growth of 'everything'.

Mark me up for an "everything spin" too. If mirrors are a problem,
then make it bittorrent only - this makes those of us that want it
also responsible for providing it.

[Michael Schwendt]

Post by Fulko.Hew
Me... I want an ISO that has 'everything' on it (that it can), and
then let me select what I need, without forcing me to have a network
connection to search for missing stuff.
++1 here
(Only one copy of each rpm is in 'everything')
I can then configure a box to my needs,
run yum update for all at once and reasonably expect
no rpm conflicts - and more important - so can a newbie.

For the "no rpm conflicts" you first need to convince a few people at
Fedora that certain conflicts are really bad. They don't share that
opinion yet.

[Styma, Robert E (Robert)]

Post by Jesse Keating
They are being developed over time.
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeatureFedoraDesktop/Pa
ckageList
lists the packages we specifically ask for, and then let
pungi depsolve.
--
Jesse Keating
Release Engineer: Fedora

Hi Jessee,
I have been following a few of these threads and there is something
that I have not seen addressed. My current machine, like a lot of the
ones out there, is a mix of spins. I have both Gnome and KDE loaded.
I also run Samba as the PDC for my house (yes the kids have to log into
a domain), and software development tools, and a web server, etc.
If I pick some spin, say the Gnome desktop spin and run upgrade mode,
what will happen to the KDE install and the other packages not covered
by that DVD?

Will I be left with a system part way between FC6 and FC7?

If I have to load just one spin and then add in the other RPM's manually
I would request that a mechanism be set up to facilitate figuring out
what
I need to load. A straight compare of what RPM's are were on the FC6
machine
and what is on the new FC7 machine may or may not be a working deal.

Bob Styma

[Jesse Keating]

Post by Styma, Robert E (Robert)
Hi Jessee,
? ?I have been following a few of these threads and there is something
that I have not seen addressed. ?My current machine, like a lot of the
ones out there, is a mix of spins. ?I have both Gnome and KDE loaded. ?
I also run Samba as the PDC for my house (yes the kids have to log into
a domain), and software development tools, and a web server, etc.
If I pick some spin, say the Gnome desktop spin and run upgrade mode,
what will happen to the KDE install and the other packages not covered
by that DVD?
Will I be left with a system part way between FC6 and FC7?
If I have to load just one spin and then add in the other RPM's manually
I would request that a mechanism be set up to facilitate figuring out
what
I need to load. ?A straight compare of what RPM's are were on the FC6
machine
and what is on the new FC7 machine may or may not be a working deal.

We haven't tackled the upgrade set just yet. It may involve doing network
upgrades through anaconda (so that anaconda can work its magic) so that you
have access to all the packages, but we're not sure on this yet. Given that
this is a problem today, if you have Extras packages installed, I don't think
we could do much worse (:
--
Jesse Keating
Release Engineer: Fedora
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[dragoran]

Post by Jesse Keating

Post by Styma, Robert E (Robert)
Hi Jessee,
I have been following a few of these threads and there is something
that I have not seen addressed. My current machine, like a lot of the
ones out there, is a mix of spins. I have both Gnome and KDE loaded.
I also run Samba as the PDC for my house (yes the kids have to log into
a domain), and software development tools, and a web server, etc.
If I pick some spin, say the Gnome desktop spin and run upgrade mode,
what will happen to the KDE install and the other packages not covered
by that DVD?
Will I be left with a system part way between FC6 and FC7?
If I have to load just one spin and then add in the other RPM's manually
I would request that a mechanism be set up to facilitate figuring out
what
I need to load. A straight compare of what RPM's are were on the FC6
machine
and what is on the new FC7 machine may or may not be a working deal.

We haven't tackled the upgrade set just yet. It may involve doing network
upgrades through anaconda (so that anaconda can work its magic) so that you
have access to all the packages, but we're not sure on this yet. Given that
this is a problem today, if you have Extras packages installed, I don't think

and what if the there is not network/internet connection @ during the
update ?

[Jesse Keating]

Post by dragoran
update ?

Then you face the same problem you have with Core 5 -> 6 and 4 -> 5 today.
None of your extras packages get updated, but some core ones do, which might
break the Extras ones.
--
Jesse Keating
Release Engineer: Fedora
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[Michal Jaegermann]

Post by Jesse Keating

Post by dragoran
update ?

Then you face the same problem you have with Core 5 -> 6 and 4 -> 5 today.
None of your extras packages get updated, but some core ones do, which might
break the Extras ones.

In practice the later is much smaller problem that a requirement of
an external network connection during an update. If you need a
connection to LAN depends on precisely how you are running those
updates. Yes, indeed, some of extra packages may break and you are
fixing those later. At that time either you can access WAN, with
usually much smaller demands on speed and capacity of that
connection, or you need to provide those updates you require by some
other means. The key is that you are not _forced_ to do that
right now.

Do not forget as well that while updating over a network (and
assuming that yum is used or that this works like yum, which seems
reasonable) you need a disk space, in specific locations, for all
packages _at once_ which will be used in this update. In many
situations this will be a show-stopper condition.

It appears that somebody forgets that although it is nice to
have abundant resources the situation is often not that perfect.

Michal

[Arthur Pemberton]

I have been following most of the discussion on the devel list about
the spins, and I would encourage any of you not subscribed to it to
check the archives so you may have an idea of what is going on, no
need to spread fud when the info is semi-easily available. (not
implying that this thread is mostly fud)

So I'll try to answer as much as I know based on the email of the OP.
I do not work for RedHat, just an avid Fedora user who tries to keep
pace with what is going on with it.

Post by monty19@ hotmail.com
OK, here goes. I'll probably have to duck and run for my life after this,
although it's not my intention to upset anyone by any means.

No need to duck, we are mostly civilized here...if we have to fight,
we will face each other.

Post by monty19@ hotmail.com
Personally, I think having separate ISO images for Desktop, Developer,
Server, KDE, and whatever else is a pretty silly idea.

Your opinion is flawed in that it is bias since have spins does not
benefit you. It does benefit me, thought not as much as others - the
benefit being added concentration on KDE in Fedora.

Post by monty19@ hotmail.com
It's one of the main
reasons I don't like Ubuntu.

I have never tried Ubuntu myself, so I don't know what to make of this.

Post by monty19@ hotmail.com
I run Fedora on a system I would classify as a
server, and one I would classify as a Desktop, although some would seem to
classify it as a Developer Workstation, despite my rather sincere belief
that I am not a developer.

I emphasize with you: my main FC6 machine is used as:
- PVR and television
- dev workstation (web and programs)
- desktop (KDE centric)
- lite backup
- file server
- web server of sorts
- email archiver

Post by monty19@ hotmail.com
Reagardless of classification though, it takes
just one DVD to install any systems I have. That's just me at home with two
computers I run Linux on; now consider those in an IT environment and how
many systems in how many different roles they may be supporting.

I think it is fair to assume that for large production environments,
one may use CentOS or RHEL as opposed to th fast paced Fedora

Post by monty19@ hotmail.com
How big a
collection of discs is he going to need?

Also, at above 5 machine installs, you should already have moved away
from disk installs to a local repo.

Post by monty19@ hotmail.com
And if you're going to point at
that individual and say he should be using RHEL, or something similar, then
why have a server spin at all?

That will be for those of use setting up a small, often headless
server which we would like to use Fedora on. Ideal spin to keep in
your work bag so you can setup a Fedora server in a small amount of
time...typically in a non heavy production environment or for ones
personal use.

Post by monty19@ hotmail.com
I like having just one CD, with the vast majority of what I want to install.
It takes me a few minutes tops to download what I want from Extras now,
versus the many times that it took to install the developer packages I
wanted with F7T1...

Fair enough. I haven't tried F7T1 myself. However, for a desktop or
server only installs, one really should not be compiling stuff on the
machine, ie. it is fair to assume most of the packages that you will
need will come from your spin.

Post by monty19@ hotmail.com
Now, I know it is a goal to merge Fedora Core and Extras, so here are my
questions. As of Fedora 6, it looks like the binary CD was ~3.4GB (going
off of http://torrent.fedoraproject.org/)

You keep saying CD, I'm assuming you mean DVD, or more generally, disk.

Post by monty19@ hotmail.com
That still leaves 1.3GB on a
4.7GB DVD available for new additions.

DVDs (normally) hold more along the lines of 4.3GB, 4.7GB is more of
the marketing number, last I checked.

Post by monty19@ hotmail.com
How big is Extras?

Extras is massive...just throwing a guess I would say at least twice
that of core. And unlike Core, there is no predictable limit to its
growth. Luckily for mirrors, hard drive space is fairly cheap,
however, bandwidth is still a limiting factor. Also, extras also has a
lot of redundant packages - ie. programs that do the same thing, or
replace others. To give an example, I believe there are 5 window
managers in Core+Extras.

Post by monty19@ hotmail.com
Even if it is
bigger than that, why not create one DVD to the fullest extent that you can
with the most popular packages

That in itself would be a spin: Fedora Popular if you will. But, how
do you tell what is popular? Fedora Metrics is not in full swing yet.

Post by monty19@ hotmail.com
and then create a second install disc for
the remaining packages, more akin to the Solaris Companion Disc.

You're assuming 2 DVDs can store everything, I highly doubt this. I
think 3 DVDs would a more realistic estimate.

Post by monty19@ hotmail.com
How many
images are you going to release? Two per supported platform seems better
than what sounds like a whole lot more coming down the road...

Why does it sound better? You wanting all the packages isn't really an
objective answer.

Post by monty19@ hotmail.com
I look at it this way; if you're going to download two ISO images, then why
not download two that have all the packages you want. Why download a server
disc, and a desktop disc, which may both be lacking packages you want to
install, and then are forced to download anyway...

You're making a lot of assumptions here.
1) Most people will want multiple spins
2) A single spin will be lacking for the downloaders needs
3) Most can afford to download 2+ DVDs
4) That once you download X disks, there isn't much downloading to do
- a lot of times this is not true. Between the devel freeze and the
time you actually get to download a release, there are often a lot of
updates made.

Post by monty19@ hotmail.com
I'm not saying that the ability to create your own disc with just the
software you want is necessarilly a bad thing either; it's just that with
the current route there are going to be a lot more people making their own
discs, than downloading the ones created by the Fedora team, and then what's
the point of releasing any at all?

It maybe a good idea , I think, to just create a spin with the
installer only and the ability to reliably network install everything
else. Since you can afford to download 2+ DVDs this shouldn't be a
problem for you.

Regardless though, I think that is fair to assume that there will be
an Everything spin, either official, or semi official since your wants
aren't too unique. You objectives would be best server by sending an
email to someone in the devel team to confirm this.

Post by monty19@ hotmail.com
I just can't help but feel like this is a less than ideal turn of direction
for Fedora,

Maybe so, but I can't say that I share that sentiment yet.

Post by monty19@ hotmail.com
not just for the reasons above, but also because it is going to
confuse new users.

I think that a user who can't decide what disk they want, most likely
wouldn't know what to do with 2 or 3 DVDs of software either. They
would be better served by some script to help them choose.

Post by monty19@ hotmail.com
Which of the discs do I want? What if I need something
else?

You do what you do now...yum install foo

Post by monty19@ hotmail.com
Do I have to create my own spin?

That is an option.

Post by monty19@ hotmail.com
Can I download it afterward?

Also an option.

Post by monty19@ hotmail.com
Simple questions for everyone here, but it's going to confuse the daylights
out of people looking at Linux as an alternative to whatever they are
running now...

Someone confused by this will not need -devel packages, and will
probably be best served by a simplistic DE like Gnome, ie. until they
learn more, the Fedora Desktop spin will be the best thing for them.

Post by monty19@ hotmail.com
Just my two cents, for whatever they're worth...

Your opinions are worth a lot.

Peace

[James Hubbard]

Post by Arthur Pemberton
I think it is fair to assume that for large production environments,
one may use CentOS or RHEL as opposed to th fast paced Fedora

That's not a fair assumption. Almost all of the developers in my
organization have laptops that are running some form of Fedora,
because it's almost always easier to get fedora running on laptops
because of better component support. It seems to be easier to get
things like wifi, susped/resume, etc working.

To be fair, it's been a long time since I've tried to get RHEL to run
on a laptop. So the above may be incorrect.

[Arthur Pemberton]

Post by James Hubbard

Post by Arthur Pemberton
I think it is fair to assume that for large production environments,
one may use CentOS or RHEL as opposed to th fast paced Fedora

That's not a fair assumption. Almost all of the developers in my
organization have laptops that are running some form of Fedora,
because it's almost always easier to get fedora running on laptops
because of better component support. It seems to be easier to get
things like wifi, susped/resume, etc working.
To be fair, it's been a long time since I've tried to get RHEL to run
on a laptop. So the above may be incorrect.

Yes. But you said their laptops....aren't they responsible for their
laptops? Or is their a single IT person responsible for installing
Fedora on the laptops of your fellow employees?

[James Hubbard]

Post by Arthur Pemberton

Post by James Hubbard
That's not a fair assumption. Almost all of the developers in my
organization have laptops that are running some form of Fedora,
because it's almost always easier to get fedora running on laptops
because of better component support. It seems to be easier to get
things like wifi, susped/resume, etc working.

Yes. But you said their laptops....aren't they responsible for their
laptops? Or is their a single IT person responsible for installing
Fedora on the laptops of your fellow employees?

Typically what happens is that one or two of us blaze the trail to a
new release. I'm usually the first. As long as nothing major breaks
and we can get meaningful work done others will start using the new
release. Once there's a few of us using it, someone will setup
another desktop/laptop for the sysadmin shop with what is needed.
They'll ghost it and use the image for a while.

Not all of the developers are interested in installing their own
systems. New hires that don't have a lot of experience with Linux
usually get the ghosted image. I believe there may be one or two
using Gentoo and perhaps one using Ubuntu.

For FC6, I had to spend a couple of hours getting the fc5 OpenMotif
srpm to compile, making sure that one of the major apps that we
support compiled and ran properly. OpenMotif is a requirement for us.

The process for creating custom "spins" needs to be as easy as
possible. We finally got the process for creating FC5 "spins"
automated after a few days of effort. Whatever is created for "spins"
needs to be easy to use and work for multiple version releases. For
example, I want to be able to create a Fedora 9 or 10 spin on my
Fedora 7 box that contains the files.

[Jesse Keating]

Post by James Hubbard
The process for creating custom "spins" needs to be as easy as
possible. ?We finally got the process for creating FC5 "spins"
automated after a few days of effort. ?Whatever is created for "spins"
needs to be easy to use and work for multiple version releases. ?For
example, I want to be able to create a Fedora 9 or 10 spin on my
Fedora 7 box that contains the files.

Virtually impossible unless you make use of mock on the system to create a
chroot with the appropriate release packages to do the spin.
--
Jesse Keating
Release Engineer: Fedora
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[James Hubbard]

Post by Jesse Keating

Post by James Hubbard
The process for creating custom "spins" needs to be as easy as
possible. We finally got the process for creating FC5 "spins"
automated after a few days of effort. Whatever is created for "spins"
needs to be easy to use and work for multiple version releases. For
example, I want to be able to create a Fedora 9 or 10 spin on my
Fedora 7 box that contains the files.

Virtually impossible unless you make use of mock on the system to create a
chroot with the appropriate release packages to do the spin.

You mean that if I download all of the packages from a mirror I could
not put together a "spin" without having already installed the version
that I want?

That doesn't make sense to me. Could someone explain why? The only
reason that I can come up with is the release that I'm using can't
understand the package information.

[Jesse Keating]

Post by James Hubbard
You mean that if I download all of the packages from a mirror I could
not put together a "spin" without having already installed the version
that I want?
That doesn't make sense to me. ?Could someone explain why? The only
reason that I can come up with is the release that I'm using can't
understand the package information.

I'm saying that the compose tool for a given release is designed to work with
the packages from a given release, like anaconda(-runtime), yum, file system
creation tools, bootable image creation tools, etc...

For this reason, I'm suggesting the use of mock to create a chroot in which to
run the compose. You can still make use of local mirrors to get the packages
from.

Add to that the fact that certain anaconda-runtime tools need to be ran on the
arch they are composing, so to compose i386, you need to be on i386 (setarch
i386 mock -r foo), to compose x86_64, the same. Ditto ppc, or whatever other
arch you may want to compose for.
--
Jesse Keating
Release Engineer: Fedora
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[Arthur Pemberton]

Post by James Hubbard

Post by Arthur Pemberton

Post by James Hubbard
That's not a fair assumption. Almost all of the developers in my
organization have laptops that are running some form of Fedora,
because it's almost always easier to get fedora running on laptops
because of better component support. It seems to be easier to get
things like wifi, susped/resume, etc working.

Yes. But you said their laptops....aren't they responsible for their
laptops? Or is their a single IT person responsible for installing
Fedora on the laptops of your fellow employees?

Typically what happens is that one or two of us blaze the trail to a
new release. I'm usually the first. As long as nothing major breaks
and we can get meaningful work done others will start using the new
release. Once there's a few of us using it, someone will setup
another desktop/laptop for the sysadmin shop with what is needed.
They'll ghost it and use the image for a while.
Not all of the developers are interested in installing their own
systems. New hires that don't have a lot of experience with Linux
usually get the ghosted image. I believe there may be one or two
using Gentoo and perhaps one using Ubuntu.
For FC6, I had to spend a couple of hours getting the fc5 OpenMotif
srpm to compile, making sure that one of the major apps that we
support compiled and ran properly. OpenMotif is a requirement for us.
The process for creating custom "spins" needs to be as easy as
possible. We finally got the process for creating FC5 "spins"
automated after a few days of effort. Whatever is created for "spins"
needs to be easy to use and work for multiple version releases. For
example, I want to be able to create a Fedora 9 or 10 spin on my
Fedora 7 box that contains the files.

Sounds like you have serious needs. I hope your keeping a close eye on
the dev process so you may put in some constructive input. May make
life easier for you later on.

Peace

[James Hubbard]

Post by Arthur Pemberton
Sounds like you have serious needs. I hope your keeping a close eye on
the dev process so you may put in some constructive input. May make
life easier for you later on.

I don't believe that my needs are more serious than the others that
have expressed an opinion/need/want. I just wanted to describe what
happens in our environment to give context to "developer workstation"
discussion. No matter what happens we'll work around the issues. We at
least have that opportunity unlike some of the other environments out
there.

[Jesse Keating]

Post by James Hubbard
I don't believe that my needs are more serious than the others that
have expressed an opinion/need/want. ?I just wanted to describe what
happens in our environment to give context to "developer workstation"
discussion. No matter what happens we'll work around the issues. We at
least have that opportunity unlike some of the other environments out
there.

Wouldn't it be best if you created a spin of Fedora that best suited the needs
of your environment, possibly even including packages outside the Fedora
world that your coworkers may need? You wouldn't be able to distribute this
outside your workplace, but still...
--
Jesse Keating
Release Engineer: Fedora
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[James Hubbard]

Post by Jesse Keating

Post by James Hubbard
I don't believe that my needs are more serious than the others that
have expressed an opinion/need/want. I just wanted to describe what
happens in our environment to give context to "developer workstation"
discussion. No matter what happens we'll work around the issues. We at
least have that opportunity unlike some of the other environments out
there.

Wouldn't it be best if you created a spin of Fedora that best suited the needs
of your environment, possibly even including packages outside the Fedora
world that your coworkers may need? You wouldn't be able to distribute this
outside your workplace, but still...

Probably. It's nice to be able to pull a single image off of a
website anywhere on the net and not have to worry about whether or not
it had everything we needed. FC3, 4, and 5 has everything that we
need that wasn't binary/closed for the majority of our developers. FC
6 breaks this for us. It looks like FC7 could be worse.

Also, it sounds like we'll have to maintain separate environments to
create the spins for the various releases and architectures. x86_64
for hasn't been a big deal yet, but we'll probably start using it
more. Of course the various virtual machines will make that easier,
but it's one more thing to maintain.